hontou ni
21Jan/0719

Loli – A personal definition

Is Manabi a loli?

This was a question posed to me by fellow countryman, Impz, in a bid to clarfiy the usage of 'loli'. Though hardly an authority in loli-affairs, I will attempt my 20 yen worth.

Yes and no

For those following Sai-loli would know that there are some skimishes in loli-land on the validity of candidature of several nominations. Yuzuhara Konomi was one such figure of contention. Several believe she fails the loli-test because of age and cup-size, while others maintained inner loli-characteristics are sufficient attributes for laying claim to the title. The issue, I believe, lies in the usage of a pseudo-English word in a Japanese context.

I used to have a definition close to vexx's: 'Lolicon' for lovers of seductive young girls in the 13-17 bracket while 'pedophile' for those who lust after children below 12. Until I was challenged on the use of 'loli'. "loli' is an interesting word. While it seems to be an abbreviation from 'lolita', the word is associated more with 'lolicon'. And 'lolicon', in spite of its English roots, is a Japanese word seemingly synonymous with the lust of girls under the age of consent. It is important to note that loli of lolita involves some sexualisation of the girl in question while loli of lolicon is applied to all underaged females. For the English speaking immersed in Japanese culture, it's can get exceedingly confusing. Thus depending on the stage of your anime assimilation, Konomi may or may not be a loli.

Myself, in order to avoid potential disputes, I now subscribe to the 'lolicon' camp (limiting the age to below 13) while inventing another word (lolicious) to describe characters that have childlike attributes whether in mind or body despite being over 12. So to me, Konomi is lolicious but not strictly a loli. Even greatly lolified characters like Hagu, because she is 19, is merely lolicious. This of course is a very personal application of the word. Frankly, I still struggle the word 'loli', uncertain if I should reincorporate the sexual undertones to purify its usage. Ah well, I guess at the end of the day, if your readers understand where you coming from, all's well. :)

Coming up next, some thoughts on the use of 'tsundere'.

Related posts:

  1. A very personal classification of harem series
  2. Five recent loli-sisters of note ~ Watashiwalolisisconjanai-hen
  3. SHUFFLE! Memories 6

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Comments (19) Trackbacks (2)
  1. nekosasu
    January 21st, 2007 - 14:01

    This sounds like a very clear and complete definition to me.
    But unless you really know their age, you probably might want to use the ‘loli’ denomination. Because nowadays it is very difficult to distinguish between a 12yr old loli and 16yr lolicious girl… The character designers don’t vary too much between the different ages. Sometimes you might even consider an actual 10 yr mature enough to be lolicious… so you still cannot overlook the age factor.
    Anyway, nice definition ;)

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  2. Zyl
    January 21st, 2007 - 15:02

    Interestingly enough, the title character of Nabokov’s novel is not just very under-aged (12) but she seduces Humbert and has another middle-aged lover. However the entire account is unreliable as it is based on Humbert’s own writings. The lolita-complex (eventually becoming the noun ‘lolicon’) has a striking ambiguity that reflects varying degrees of Humbert’s obsession with the under-aged Lolita as well as Lolita’s seduction of Humbert.

    Your definition attempts to impose criteria to objectively define a loli but it seems to be me that it only reflects the perception of the lolicon (the middle aged man) and not enough from the loli. Lolicons don’t just lust after lolis but they also blame lolis for seducing lolicons e.g. abq implies with his statement: ‘Aren’t lolis evil? Don’t they steal men’s souls and make them their slaves?’ at loli-battle HQ).

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  5. retsgip
    January 22nd, 2007 - 04:02

    I’m assuming we’re talking about Manabi from Manabi Straight! since I know no other Manabi with my ‘limited’ anime background.

    I’ll say yes and no as well, BUT I won’t say that Manabi Straight! is a ‘loli show.’ When I think loli, I think of young girl being viewed by older men (and women i guess?) for two reason: 1) because they want to see cuteness, and/or 2) because they find sexual pleasure in seeing younger females. Manabi Straight by no means condones such behavior in the way they present their material. I’ve said maybe 20 times now, but I honestly believe that the show is primarily focused on friendship and growth as a person.

    Now, as for the characters, sure they could be seen as loli. They “kind of” have boobs which means they’re probably around 12, which I would consider loli material. The only problem is, they don’t really have the typical loli look to them. I’d say they’re more moe (god i hate this word) than loli, but who am I to say? I’m a MILF lover and tend to go for the mature ones anyhow.

    If you’re talking about some other Manabi, disregard my long-winded piece of bs and go about your day :)

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  6. crimson
    January 22nd, 2007 - 08:02

    The keyword is “lust” or “like”/”aishideru~~~~rins-san~~”.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder or seduction is in the sensitivity of the victim, loli is a subjective term. What is loli to some is just tree and grass to others. Though, majority owns and minority rights.

    For adorable boys/girls below 12, i’ll just keep it to “i like kute cids” since some people out there are talented in imagining the worst possible interpretation as examplified by tenma-chan.

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  7. Stripey
    January 23rd, 2007 - 00:30

    nekosasu: Thanks! :) Generally, I think it’s not hard to deduce the age. The 2 main clues are physical development and the level of education. But when in doubt, I just call them lolicious. :)

    Zyl: LOL! Bro, I just realised you went a roundabout way to call me a lolicon. Very sneaky! You been watching too much Kaede on SHUFFLE memories. XD Maybe we need Naurzon (being lolicious herself) or other RL lolis for a more objective inputs :)

    ShadowrazoR: Then you are a hotblooded healthy male at the prime of your youth and the envy of many. :) it’s interesting pt that you brought up after all no one has accused Shaoran of CCS a lolicon because of her love for Sakura. One of the reason why I had initially put 17 yr olds under the loli bracket is because at my age of 75, hankering after 17 yr olds would be perceived as loliconism :)

    Muir Woods: Beautifully written. :) I now see how the almost ‘degradatory’ use of lolita would irk you.

    retsgip: Oh yes, I was toking abut Manabi. :) Since I’ve only seen half of ep 1, I’d agree with you that Manabi Straight is not a loli-show in that it sexualises the girls. But having also read your entry on ep 3, I hope it stay true on its course set in ep 1. It’s actually the potential siscon that intrigues me about this show XD

    crimson: heh some folks have their lolifying and loliconifying glasses on all the time. little girls can become nymphets, caring fathers can become lolicons. As long as you are confident of who are you, that enough. After all when folks say I’m siscon, I just laugh it off knowing it’s actually much worse. Nah, kidding XD

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  8. Beowulf Lee
    January 23rd, 2007 - 14:11

    I prefer the neologism “lolilicious” with an exatra “li” because it has a better ring to it. Interestingly, my screen name is “Loliliciousness”.

    >>>The issue, I believe, lies in the usage of a pseudo-English word in a Japanese context.

    I think the dispute has more of its roots in the fact that people just want they’re favorite females in the battle, “loli” or not.

    >>>Your definition attempts to impose criteria to objectively define a loli but it seems to be me that it only reflects the perception of the lolicon (the middle aged man) and not enough from the loli.

    This doesn’t make any sense. If he is trying to give an objective definition (he’s not hence the title of the post), it shouldn’t have anything to do with perspective as it is universal. An example, the dictionary (subjective) definition of a child might be something like any persons between birth and adulthood. A law (objective) definition of a child (ie minor) is anyone below the age of 18. (If, she/he is born 7/7/20, and it’s 7/6/38 11:59 PM, she/he is a minor.) It’s clear that the first definition depends on perspective, while the second one does not.

    The difficulty comes from the fact that 1. Anime characters can be 3500 and still look 10 2. They’re age might not be known. 3. They can be robots. Age, as the normal rule for judging lolis, is out.

    >>>Lolicons don

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  9. Beowulf Lee
    January 23rd, 2007 - 14:13

    I just noticed that I have the fondness of replacing “their” with “they’re”.

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  10. vexx
    January 23rd, 2007 - 16:20

    Okay… lolicious (or lolilicious) is a cool word :) ftw — in that it conveys the flavor of the girl without getting tangled up in local definitions. Another part of the problem is that “lolicon” describes the attributes of the *fan* and has a fairly specific meaning… whereas “loli” (root word lolita) is back into ambiguity land (13-17? anything below 13? 0-17 except where age of consent is lower (16,14)?)

    Frankly, people can call themselves leaping marmots … but I get really annoyed when, as Stripey says, “heh some folks have their lolifying and loliconifying glasses on all the time. little girls can become nymphets, caring fathers can become lolicons.” I’d add “liking shows about young girls growing up becomes pedo-tastic”. That seriously pisses me off when people take their own closet goblins and ascribe them to other people.

    I don’t mind using the word “Lolicious” but I’ll try to be specific about how I use it. :)

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  11. Stripey
    January 24th, 2007 - 23:21

    Beowulf Lee:

    >>I think the dispute has more of its roots in the fact that people just want they

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  12. vexx
    January 25th, 2007 - 23:03

    @stripey: sometimes it gets a little blurry (“sexualize the characters”) when the story is about them coming-of-age (growing up, etc). Azumanga Daioh’s characters were growing up, hence the occasional boob remark or lamenting the lack of boyfriends (or fending off the ineffective perv teacher) … or Kamichu’s girls who were mere seconds from entering that world of dating (tigeress Matsuri ftw or glass doll little siste Miko). The best stories happen around life transition points. Honey & Cloover was wonderful because the story covered a relatively unexplored (in anime) transition time…. but still the one that hits the nostalgia buttons still tends to be that middleschool/highschool time.

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  13. cyw1988
    January 26th, 2007 - 07:19

    well… loli would be yuzuyu from aishiteru baby or wads her name from kamichu…
    semi loli would be illya from f/sn and shana from SnS
    Full woman goes to mikuru from haruhi and yoshida kasumi from SnS

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  14. impz
    January 26th, 2007 - 10:29

    O_O;;;; got to link this up :D

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  15. Stripey
    January 27th, 2007 - 22:05

    vexx: Indeed. :) I believe the key theme we enjoy in any story is ‘change’ And growing up tales are so chock full of them.

    cyw1988: haha, yuzuya would be toddler-con wouldn’t be? XD

    impz: I refer to you my ‘I’m not lolicon’ post XD

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  17. Stripey
    January 29th, 2007 - 23:00

    LOL! I think you should submit a poster for our next anime conference XD

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  18. crimson
    January 30th, 2007 - 05:06

    oh well, there’s the flaw that ages 1-8 and 16-99 werent addressed and the basic assumption that people have a proper standard for some of the regions of intersection :P

    e.g.: If I’m *NOT* 9-15 *BUT* I’m physical *AND* behavioural appealing, that may mean I’m a moe but artist impression insists that it should not be applicable to 3 year olds or 99 year olds.

    Maybe I can put the instruction warning which is “Only regions involving 9 to 15 are more accurate, thus the green circle for it represents the main condition for validity. Regions that do not involve the intersection of the green circle remains a case of possibility when no reasonable judgement is exercised.”

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  19. crimson
    January 30th, 2007 - 05:39

    ahhh…most of the points mentioned in the previous post can be summarised here just by expanding on one of the Legends for the schematic :P

    Orange dot:
    Moe, “If” 16 and above, “Else” N.A.

    16 and above cos elves can be a few thousand years old, lol.

    I wanted to include hot mums too but too many parameters makes simple diagrams look less attractive.

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