-Is it so improbable that Hiromi can be cast as a girl whose plights and problems have twisted her so to the point that she has maimed herself with jealousy and fear, and yet still seeks to continue living and fighting for a love which may very well slip through her fingers?

My main point with taking issue with those who would paint her as a tragic misunderstood heroine too those of us who do not support her hinges on the word “misunderstood”. As I stated I do find her situation utterly tragic. To love someone whom you have thought to be forever beyond your reach, for reasons which you have no control over, and yet still unable to let go of them? What could be more tragic? I too have known similar situations, and I can sympathize. But as you yourself say she has maimed herself. This makes her situation yet more tragic, but the tragedy does not absolve her of her own part in causing the tragedy. She is the one who allows her jealousy, her bitterness, her possessiveness, and her fear run out of control and hurt her as bad or worse than her unrequited love, of its own accord, ever could have done. There are many ways to react in such a situation, and while you hesitate to classify any as either right or wrong, you well know that I am under no such inhibition. If I am imposing my own values on her, well I only have my own values to work from at the end of the day. You would view letting him go to show her love as something that is no longer romance, but more on that later.

I will say now, that I have viewed this as more a discourse between us, and not so much the “masses”. If the masses want to partake in this discussion they are welcome to do so, but I was primarily talking to and with you, and so I perhaps took issue where I shouldn’t have with your constant explanations of things I felt I was already perfectly aware of. I knew her reasons for her actions, I was not unaware of her hardships. But after taking all that into account I still found her actions, particularly her dishonesty, and later her pettiness, to be reprehensible. Not because I didn’t understand them but because I still found the reasons insufficient to justify her actions. Explain them certainly, but not justify in the sense of making right. Her actions were inexcusable, though not, I admit, unforgivable.

But then I do not make it a point of making my knowledge of situations explicit when I discuss the situations because I focus more on the action. This is perhaps my own particular failing. You obviously understood Hiromi’s reasoning so why expound on those reasons? My posts are long enough as is. But then, you were not writing to me but to others who might senselessly hate Hiromi without considering her situation, or for those who might understand her situation and excuse her actions, so I owe you an apology as well.

-Regarding

The point about death solving all problems is that it short simple and to the point and in the grand scheme of things costs the least amount of resources both in time and capital. Sure the dead won’t be able to enjoy things, but they were the problem they obviously have failed to correct said problem so it was solved for them in the most final sense. I don’t care who is left to enjoy this new found release from said problem all I know is that humans are strange creatures not other being on earth does things we do to one another. We pretend that all men are good that evil is somehow an oddity. Given how there are so many problems I do believe that all men are not good, more over they remain problem generators. It is a simple matter to use death to halt the stream of problems, to pull the plug if you will. To use death as a solution is to accept that the problem is the biggest concern not the preciousness of life or what that person might contribute in the long run. I never said it was right, but it remains a simply solution to a myriad of problems. Indeed if man no longer existed there would be no war, no poverty, not racial tension, and no ethnic hatred. Given that these problems have not abated I think you will agree that a sufficient solution has not been found, and that death is the only known one, even if the cost is too awful to contemplate. You seem to be hung up on justifying things, beear in mind there is no requirement for justification when a person takes action, have you not heard of doing things for the lulz?

Ah well I will wait to see if your Hiromi has indeed improved and taken one more step to discard her fear and hatred as 12 has aired. Keep in mind comrade that fortune favors the bold. In the eps to come the Goddess of Victory will bestow her laurels only on those who are prepared to act with daring. Noe has proved her courage and daring by allowing her heart to break. Just because Noe has let Shin-chan go does not prevent Shin-chan to go back to Noe.

@Crusader

Regarding violence and jealousy: Alright, so you value honesty as much to the point that you are fine with violence as it is an honest way of expression. I value it less because honesty is not always the best policy, violence even less so of a justification of honesty. You say death is the end all of man’s problems, but for who does it solve the problem for? The dead will not have life remaining to enjoy the freedom from problem, and there are not enough situations where the living can justify the killing of a kin just for the resolution of a problem. Your belief would kill all mankind to end their problems, and yet there would be no man left to enjoy the freedom from the problems, so what point is there in such a resolution? No, I do not understand nor accept your point. But it is yours to keep and believe in, so do as you wish; I could care less, as I have said.

Regarding propaganda: I stand corrected, if it wasn’t clear earlier from my last post seeing how I did not even comment about it. Yes, since you define propaganda as so, I am spreading propaganda. However I will not back down from the fact that this ‘propaganda’ is not a sign of bias, let alone a blind bias. Yes, I write for the masses, if you will. I certainly don’t write in hope of changing you, because it is a futile effort in itself. A debate is not about two teams trying to change each other, it’s about two teams trying to influence the members of the floor. So yes, I am writing what you call propaganda. And I am writing it for the benefit of people who would listen, who would value a different opinion. Your opinion is that of your own as well, but don’t act as if it is the one and only opinion around and any other opinion that even slightly conflicts with yours must be ground into dust. Give and take, Crusader. Give and take. If you start on other people by calling them and their posts ‘hateful’, don’t expect them to treat you other than that, ‘hateful’.

Regarding respect: Just because there is one way to show disrespect does not mean that it is the only way. While you may not have acted as you have said, in comparison to what I would like to call a neutral first post on my part, you come in, laced with negative remarks and hateful sentiments, and proceed to degrade both Hiromi and any opinion I have about her. Seeing as people even bother to make their posts non-inflammatory, your brash style of commentary comes off as disrespect for my efforts at trying for a neutral discussion. Hence why I reacted with a ‘condescending’ attitude. If I am not going to be shown equal respect in neutrality, I don’t see why I even have to bring up the issue of your negative comments with you. Instead, I would let actions speak for themselves, as you are so fond of saying, and react accordingly. In fact, for me to be so angered over this disrespect at least shows I think of you as a worthy person to debate with; had you done what you said you could have done, I wouldn’t even bother with commenting on it because it shows how you would be not up to par with the current levels of discussion. The physical gestures would then fall under this topic, because as much as you outright reject some of my statements and refuse to even discuss them, I can only treat some of your points with similar cynicism. It is to you what your artfully but yet ugly usage of flamboyant negative adjectives and statements is to me.

Regarding ‘time’: We know for a fact that Hiromi has had all her external problems removed and that now the ball is in her (and Shin’s) hands whether to advance or not. However, we also know for a fact that she is still unable to let go of her jealousy and her insecurity about Shin. You say she is more jealous given the picture book and Shin’s move to save Noe, but I do not see it as so because if you gave her the same situation when she was under Kanae’s oppression, she would not even react to the news at worst, at best a much longer delay. And she would be far more unreasonable and doubting of Shin to even let him run off after Noe. That is why I see the call scene as an improvement, a diminishing of her jealousy than an increase. Old habits die hard, and that why ‘time’ is needed. My issue with your view is that you expect her to just drop her habit of jealousy and fear, trust Shin and let him decide for himself. While that may eventually be the correct course of action, she has barely started her interaction with Shin as anything more than what they were before ep9. In terms of anime time, that would be two weeks at best, I think, giving one week of suspension and one week after that. Is two weeks enough to change a habit, to build such an amount of trust? Maybe to you yes, but to me no. Correct, what I expect of the Shin-Hiromi relationship requires more than 30 minutes of screen time, but it does not mean 30 minutes of screen time on them alone. Their relationship is also influenced by Jun and Noe, so any particular development on those two would also determine inadvertently the course Shin and Hiromi can take. Hence why I do not see the issue of ‘shafting’; all four of them are interdependent on each other to advance or regress, the same for any relationship between the four.

Regarding ’5 minutes’: We, or rather you, are approaching this from the viewer’s angle, from seeing a complete situation rather than how the characters see it. Yes, should anything ever happen to Noe, Shin, Jun and Hiromi would find it hard to excuse themselves of any blame. However, considering how she saw Shin’s picture book, has had to fend for her own against Jun,, does not know that Noe decided to give up on Shin, and does not have any obligation to worry for Noe, from Hiromi’s own perspective within those 5 minutes, the possible outcomes of Noe’s disappearance bear less weight than her sending Shin to look for a rival in love. Besides, when you stop and think of it, perhaps she does realize the danger that Noe is in, and hence that may have pushed her from her hesitance to trust Shin and let him find Noe. Or it could very well be the other way round, with her finally deciding to trust in Shin once seeing how Noe’s precarious position is reliant on Shin for its’ resolution. You may very well disagree with such a painting of Hiromi as a saint, but since the whole scene is subjective, you cannot deny it as being impossible. Anyway yes, I do not disagree with your view that Hiromi’s wait may indeed cause all the difference in finding Noe, but again, I am presenting another side of the story, from her own very eyes rather than ours. I may or may not agree with her actions, but at least I understand them instead of thinking the action to be irrational and illogical, leading to the mindless hate that some people (no, not you, given your essays and points) sling her way.

Regarding ‘fear and jealousy’: My point in citing my examples was to show that there is a positive aspect to jealousy, and that the actions from that state of jealousy determine whether it is positive or otherwise. I am not foolish enough to deny your examples; in fact I will admit that those examples are more frequent than my own. However, as long as there is the possibility of a positive reaction from jealousy, I am willing to give Hiromi the benefit of the doubt while she herself works on reducing her jealousy. Why reduce it if I think it can produce positive actions? Because I do not deny that it has a higher probability of being negative than positive. It is the same as anger, it is at times necessary and unavoidable, but other times, it is best for it to be avoided. As for fear and doubt, it is a natural part of the beginning of a relationship, and if they cannot overcome it at the beginning than they are definitely not ready for the road ahead. In that sense, I do not hate the fear that she carries now, because it is a natural response to the challenges posed by beginning a relationship and it is in overcoming that fear that she will prove herself worthy of being in a stable relationship. I would rather it be there for her to overcome it than for it to not be there now and instead only show up later in the relationship to complicate a relationship that has already been committed to.

Regarding ‘change’: Does Hiromi have to beat out Noe, now that Noe has actually withdrawn herself from Shin? Yes, Shin is still hung up over her, but as long as there is only one person shooting for a relationship with Shin, that one person has time at her disposal to help Shin naturally move on. Yes you are right, she needs a dramatic change to beat out Noe if both of them were to compete for his heart, and that is why we have the deus ex machina of Kanae’s sudden change of heart and personality. At that point of time, Noe and Shinichiro were very much interested in each other, and Hiromi was being held back by the various circumstances around her. Now, however, Noe has withdrawn herself from Shin, Hiromi’s external obstacles have been cleared (save for Jun probably), and she has already started her change for the better, so I do not see the need for another deus ex machina in the name of speed. And well, if you choose to think so lowly of Hiromi as to say that she will still remain only slightly less jealous and just as doubtful after all the change she may go through, I cannot change that view, but know that it is not the only legitimate point of view, let alone the only point of view.

Regarding Noe: I think you have misunderstood my previous point about doubting Noe’s love for Shin. Again, as I am repeating for sake of clarity, just because I point out or highlight a different take on an issue doesn’t mean that I necessarily subscribe to that view. I am not as ignorant as to ignore the interactions between Shin and Noe during the short period of their relationship, if anything I merely pointed out the possible reinterpretation of Noe’s love because you yourself doubted Hiromi’s love for Shin in the first place. I doubt neither of their feelings for Shin, but if people insist on saying that Hiromi does not love Shin, or that her love is dubious, then I have to point out that the same subjective cynical view can be applied to Noe.

Regarding “price of defending Hiromi”, I would not have you judge my efforts on defending Hiromi when you are not in my position. Why? Because if you calculate costs based on money alone, then yes, there is no price to defend Hiromi. But if I factor in the time I am using to mull things over, rewatch episodes and scenes to find different interpretations and viewpoints, and just plain sorting out my own thoughts and reasonings to make all of that into a coherent opinion, then there is a lot more cost involved than you might think. Whether my defense for Hiromi is unconditional or not depends on how you interpret the following statement: I will defend Hiromi as long as I do not neglect my own well-being in reality. If that condition itself goes against your definition of ‘unconditional’ then yes, I am conditional in her defense because she, as much as I would like her to be, is not my life partner. She is not even existent in reality. I have to take care of my own self before I can take care of her. So, after all this, if you still offer your apology to me, then it needs not to be said; as a fellow anime enthusiast I will accept it. If you feel that, after reaffirming what I meant about my defense of Hiromi, that I am not deserving of the apology, then I will not hold it against you if you take it back.

In general: Crusader, my bone of contention with you is that you have shown in your posts very little tolerance, let alone willingness to understand, a viewpoint other than yours. I have never forced on you the acceptance of a character and his/her actions, rather I have tried to point out at length the different views that each character can have. If you do not like it then that is your opinion and right to disagree, but to act as if my own opinion bears no weight and cannot be possibly right is, to put it lightly, very linear. Another problem I have with you is how you mistake me for being a blind fanboy and assuming I am dismissing Hiromi’s faults; I have never once in this course of discussion said that Hiromi has never been jealous or possessive, which I assume are the main charges you bring against her. Again, I am highlighting another take on her jealousy and possessiveness for people to read and see for themselves whether it resonates with what they feel. On the other hand, judging by past posts and your own remarks at THAT, you seem to be unable to tolerate the fact that Jun may even be possibly implicit in causing Noe’s heartbreak. Even against Jun, I do not deny his care for his sister, but for him to prioritize the proxy love setup over Noe’s happiness shows how he has lost his focus, and for that I cannot agree with your view of him as a saintly brother to Noe.

I do not doubt your qualities as a fellow anime enthusiast and intellectual, if only because you have managed to react to to my posts with enough passion and vigor for your own cause. I just do not like how you have to initially approach anyone who may disagree with your views with your negative sentiments. Quote the soldier’s lifestyle if you must, but I think that you are a human before a soldier, and as a human, you should give credit to people’s opinion when it is due. I do not say this in the hope of changing your post style, but at the very least I hope you will understand why some people will take to your initial responses badly. I hope that on another anime, we may see eye to eye, but for now, it is not this anime.

@Dirian

Regarding ‘condescending’: Crusader has ‘blasted’ me, refer to his opinions of a lifestyle I deem acceptable as well as his earlier post about ‘my hateful acceptance’ of Hiromi. I do not fault you if you find it laughable that I take issue with such words, but I am not one to take words lightly to the point that I will hurl abuse without thinking of the possible repercussions. That he was annoyed/irritated/angry about my response shows how he did not anticipate me to take such words seriously.

Regarding ‘interpretation’: It’s good that you at least know now what I really mean behind all my justifications, but this:

-and I took, and still do take, issue with any opinion that wants to paint her in the light of some poor misunderstood tragic heroine.

comes off again as being unable to accept a different take on Hiromi. If you cannot give her your acceptance, then at the very least don’t take issues with people who may very well want to do so, especially if they aren’t picking a fight with you in the first place. Is it so improbable that Hiromi can be cast as a girl whose plights and problems have twisted her so to the point that she has maimed herself with jealousy and fear, and yet still seeks to continue living and fighting for a love which may very well slip through her fingers? You have your interpretations of her plight, so do I. Her tale may seem more disgusting than tragic to you, it is the reverse to me. I have not gone so far as to say that your views on her are wrong, wrong and wrong, so I don’t see why you cannot do the same for people who “want to paint her in the light of some poor misunderstood tragic heroine”. Criticizing is easier than being tolerant and resolving to understand each other’s posts, but more often than not, criticisms only generate more criticisms and it gets to the point where everything degenerates into mud-slinging and name-calling. I for one do not want to sour my true tears viewing as such, hence why I would put the extra effort in trying to convey a neutral comment (first post), but if push comes to shove I will not hesitate to defend my points, as you have seen.

But, as you say, the subject has been beaten to death, so no point in flogging a dead horse.

Regarding ‘hesitation’: Again, we are talking about our point of view, the third person perspective. My defense is very simple: If you are talking about Hiromi’s perspective, I have already elaborated why I can understand her not prioritizing Noe’s safety. If it is my own view as a viewer that you find lacking, then do not worry, for I did consider the fact that yes, Noe might be in a precarious situation, but given the storyboard direction that true tears had taken, I did not focus so much on it because a Noe death scene would not only upset the Noe masses, it would eliminate a large part of the tranquil beauty of the series, something I suspect only School Days was ever capable of doing, and something which I would think the PA Works staff are trying to avoid.

Regarding ‘Hiromi’: You prioritize actions, which is one way of looking at her. I prioritize the cause and effects of the actions, which is another. After all, for me, an effect cannot exist without a cause, so if I would find the cause, I would then understand the effect, and seeing as the action itself becomes a cause for another action, it would lead to understanding the next action taken, and so on and so forth. You have your reasons why you want to prioritize actions, and fine, I can live with that. An example to show our differences in this area is this: you concern yourself with Shin’s reason behind confessing to Noe after he did the actual confession; I prioritized Jun’s run-in with Shin from dance practice, and his self-hesitation about his feelings for Hiromi and Noe, and from there on I tried to understand if he would truly give himself any chance to develop any feelings for Noe, given how he was still in the aftermath of Hiromi’s revelations. That was then the basis for my perception of Shin-Noe; he was true to himself and to Noe at that point of time that he did like her, but he was not ready to replace Hiromi with Noe. Hence why, upon the resurgence of Hiromi, Noe realized Shin’s residual feelings and respectfully decided to leave Shin in Hiromi’s hands. It goes further on from there, but you get the rough picture. About her lack of honesty, again I will say that you and I stand on different sides of the field. I can appreciate honesty in a relationship for it is a basis for trust, but I find that jealousy and fear is what will give that honesty a chance to show itself, and for that I deem jealousy and fear an integral part of relationships. I do not mean to say that they are good, just that they are not downright bad and will always bring out the worst in people. Take Ai-chan for example; had she not feared for losing Shin to Noe or Hiromi so much, I daresay she would never have planted the surprise kiss which would endear you to her honesty. I do have issues with her display of honesty at that, but for the sake of being on-topic I will not bring it up here. Hiromi has shown the signs of fear and jealousy, it is up to her to overcome those by being honest with herself and hence build her trust in Shin. That she has reacted badly to it before only shows how she is very much human and prone to mistakes, and that is one of her endearing traits to me.

Regarding ‘Shin’: For reference, my posts from above:

-Regarding Shin himself, I have never said I would rather Hiromi